Newsgroups: alt.bible,alt.christnet,alt.messiancc
Subject: Re: An empty cave is proof of nothing.
From: attila1@ix.netcom.com (Libertarius)
Date: 2 Jan 1998

havilah@pcl.net writes:

>Getting back to Miriam's (Wolfe) original statement, I would like to say that
>an empty tomb TODAY is no proof of anything, but an empty tomb ON THE DAY
>IT HAPPENED, most definitely was--at least to those who were there.
>And the fact that Messiah's body is nowhere to be seen TODAY is a moot
>point if one takes the accounts of the original witnesses seriously,and
>we have no reason NOT to. They reacted exactly the way any of us would
>react. "They've STOLEN his body!!!" (Wait...this makes no sense...in
>fact, it's impossible.) "I'll believe it when I see it!!!" (So Jesus
>came through the wall and ate a sandwich.) After He condescended to
>demonstrate many other "convincing" proofs, a multitude who'd believed
>him, even loved him, saw him--bodily--LEAVE the earth. And I don't know
>about you, Miriam, but aren't there some things in your life so
>important, so intimate, that you would be averse to sharing them with
>anyone who DIDN'T respect you, who DIDN'T love you? The reward to these
>Jews who HAD believed Him was to get to behold His resurrected body as
>well as his departure. This much is no mystery.
>Nor was the stunning, inexplicable articulateness and authority (even in
>foreign languages, no less!) of 120 cowering, praying, obedient Jews when
>the Spirit of God fell upon them all during the feast!
>If they'd imagined that they had anything worldly to gain (wealth,power,
>prestige, or even simple respect) it would make sense. But they didn't
>even KNOW what they were going to gain! What they clearly gained was the
>spiritual authority to DO what Jesus commanded them, and a great degree
>of understanding came to them only AFTER they received the promise.
>It is not that I have no respect for tradition--either modern Judaism's
>or modern Christianity's--but like the "thread" of 58 articles that I
>just finished reading under one heading, we do digress! And we do
> miss the point. >So, please, if I offend, understand what I'm saying: It makes no
>difference to me what Origin said or what Rashti said....not when people
>(including my family) are dying like flies from guilt, despair and
>disease and the priest, the pastor, the rabbi, the guru, the doctor, the
>sister, the friend, can only offer condolences. However, it makes ALL
>THE DIFFERENCE what Jesus SAID, and DID! And precisely BECAUSE He went
>"to the Father," He is (I'm laughing, because He is not nearly as
>frustrated as I am right now) able to do in me, and for me, and sometimes
>even through me, what He did in, for, and through my BELOVED SIBLINGS in
>Judea who received Him, believed Him, waited for the Promise, and "went
>and did likewise." (This isn't "Harvey" we're talking about.) Reality
>really, really IS what happened +/-2,000 years ago, and also as recently
>as this morning, for those of us who have (wonder-of-wonders) finally
>seen Him as He really is, and experienced what He has known from
>eternity: To know Him is to love Him.
>Sorry, I've tried to say too much in a news group.
>Havilah

===>At most, you have a report of an empty tomb, although in all his writings Paul never refers to such an event, only that there were various SIGHTINGS of "Jesus" after his crucifixion. Anything else written about the tomb, witnesses, etc., was made up by conflicting story writers generations after the supposed "fact". They cannot even agree whether Jesus was bodily resuscitated, or arose from his tomb as a spirit being, which is what he was supposed to have been and what all resurrection is supposed to be, according to Saul/Paul's Christology. NOT A PHYSICAL BODY! In which case, of course, there was no point in removing that rock from the opening of the cave, was there?

Take a hint from an open-minded Christian leader:

I DO NOT TODAY REGARD THE DETAILS OF THE GOSPEL TRADITION AS POSSESSING LITERAL TRUTH IN ANY PRIMARY WAY. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE GOSPELS OFFER US EITHER RELIABLE EYEWITNESS MEMORY OR REALISTIC OBJECTIVE HISTORY.

From: Bishop John Shelby Spong: LIBERATING THE GOSPELS, p.20.

Libertarius *DON'T CONFUSE FICTION WITH REALITY*
 

QBaal  adds:

This newsgroup posting seems entirely honest. And Libertarius, the sceptic is hackin away at one of Christianity's central doctrines, the resurrection of Jesus. With good reason and from an educated perspective. He is indicative of the post-modern attitude toward scripture.

Bishop Spong indeed rejects any literal acceptance of the gospels' Resurrection stories (physical resurrection). And, where Jesus walks through a door or wall as a spiritual being, this Jesus, in Spong's estimation, would also be a dubious Jesus at best. If I read Spong right, the resurrected Jesus is seen in much the same way as the pure in heart see God. At the end of the day, the Resurrection is the great reality of history but it is a revelation from faith to faith. There is no real physical evidence other than the life of the flesh and blood Jesus of Nazareth. And, of course, real-enough Christians who continue to proclaim
"He is risen, indeed!"

At bottom, the Resurrection is intricately tied to the Christian doctrine of God. God is a loving entity or power behind the universe who operates in history. His loving personality and active concern for all are brilliantly revealed in the person and deeds of Jesus of Nazareth. Thus, those who know God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth find it wholly consistent that this same Jesus has been raised to eternity with God the Father. In other words, who cares about empty tombs which prove nothing anyway. And what does a resusitated corpse support but a new plot for some horror movie. It's simply living in relationship with God that is our final support for asserting that Jesus is alive with him for evermore = our assurance of our own immortality. Thus, as wiser Christians say, no matter how you cut it, at the end it's our faith which overcomes the world where death reigns supreme for stars, galaxies and people.